Disrupt or Die: Scaling Old-School Industries with Tech

Tired of overthinking your tech idea?

While you're busy planning the "perfect" product, your competitors are already building and shipping.

In this exclusive episode of Tech It or Leave It, we go beyond the personal stories and dive deep into the strategic mindset of Dennis Lee, a technical founder who successfully built a multi-million-dollar platform in a traditional, "ancient" industry.

This isn’t a story about luck, it’s a masterclass in swift execution, strategic pivots, and focusing on what actually matters.

Dennis shares the lessons he learned from working with countless founders, revealing why most non-technical entrepreneurs get stuck and what you can do to avoid their most common mistakes. He breaks down the difference between a "perfect" product and a valuable one, and why chasing the first is a guaranteed path to failure.

Here’s what you’ll learn in this episode:

✅ The single biggest mindset shift every non-technical founder needs to make to build a valuable product from day one.
✅ The #1 red flag to look for when choosing a tech partner that will save you from a major financial pitfall.
✅ How to move from idea to execution quickly and what to do when your first attempt fails.
✅ Why building trust with your tech team is more important than any line of code.

This episode will challenge everything you think you know about building a tech product. Opportunities won't wait for your product to be perfect. The time to act is now.

Follow Dennis Lee:
https://www.instagram.com/dennis13e/

More about Cloudjoi:
https://my.linkedin.com/company/cloudjoi
https://www.cloudjoi.com/

#businessgrowth #AIforStartups #TechPodcast #aiforbusiness #aiinbusiness #techitorleaveit 

01:11 Who is Dennis Lee?
04:39 Dennis Lee's Background
06:51 The First Story: Cloud Theatre
18:41 The Second Story: Cloudjoi
28:47 Mindset Shift for Non-Technical Founders
32:00 Choosing a Tech Partner
39:24 Marrying Tech with Traditional Industries
48:33 Lesson from performing that made him a better entrepreneur
49:08 Mistake tech teams make when building for creators

Transcript

I made three life-changing decisions in one day. I saw somebody in my office talking to my staff. We modify the RSVP system. Is this going to work? What prompted that? It was difficult to say. Actually, half of the company, they wanted to resign. I think we'll just stop there.

Welcome to Tech It or Leave It, a podcast for entrepreneurs who want to build smart, scalable tech without needing a tech degree. After eight years of building million-dollar apps for founders from around the world, I've seen what works, what flops, and what founders always get wrong. On this show, I break it all down: the real talk, the dumb mistakes, the moves that actually grow your business from product ideas and development to automation, AI, and real business outcomes. Whether you're looking to streamline your operations, turn your idea into a SaaS, or just stop feeling left out of the tech conversation, you are in the right place. Let's make tech make sense. This is Tech It or Leave It.

Today's guest is a living proof that tech and theater aren't worlds apart. They're stronger together. I'm talking about Dennis Lee, co-founder and CEO of Cloudjoi and a music theater performer. By day, Dennis is leading the digital transformation of Malaysia's art and culture scene with Cloudjoi, a platform that is revolutionizing ticketing and streaming for live performances. By night, he's on stage himself with acting credits in major productions like Fame and awards like Best Supporting Actor and the Mercedes-Benz Award for Creative Excellence under his belt.

While most people were canceling shows during lockdowns, Dennis built a virtual theater from scratch, streaming performances into homes and keeping the arts alive when everything else went dark. Since then, Cloudjoi, formerly Cloud Theater, has evolved into a full-blown ecosystem, powering 2,000 plus shows, generating 40 million Ringgit Malaysia in ticket revenue, and supporting artists, organizers, and fans alike. The platform has also backed the Startup Awards in the Media and Entertainment category at TechNode Global's Origin Innovation Awards in 2020.

In this episode, we dive into how Cloudjoi is bridging the world of performance and tech, what it really takes to digitize a tradition-bound industry, and the mistakes most platforms make when trying to serve creators. If you've ever tried to bring innovation to a space that hates change, or you're building a tech that serves artists, communities, or culture, this one's for you.

Welcome to the show, Dennis.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

All right. Cool, cool, cool. So I think we will just, you know, talk a little bit of backstory of how we met, what has kind of gone on since then. We met quite a few years ago. We actually worked on a project together, right?

Which one? Oh my god.

I was just telling Elly that I think we met in 2019. I don't remember the year, but yeah, probably around then.

Yeah, 2018, 2019.

Yes, probably around 2018, because that's when 2017 is when I, when we started Upstack Studio.

Okay.

And the first year itself we moved into WeWork.

Ah.

That's where we met.

Okay.

Yeah.

Right. That's where you guys were in a weird, small little space, you know, that you guys picked. Oh, I want this space, right? You still told me that, right? And that's also beside, you know, 500 Startups, right?

Yeah.

So that's a strategic thing that they did. We'll dive into that a little bit deeper later. But that's when we met and we worked on the project. Oh yeah. Many Independent Wives. So that's our client.

Yeah.

So basically, the backstory of that is that we got this inquiry. They would like to use PHP, right? For some reason, because their team is already kind of using PHP and stuff like that. They're familiar with that. And we were using Ruby on Rails, right? So back then when Dennis Lee is not running Cloudjoi yet, right? He is running Apple Seeds.

Yes.

Right. Apple Seeds. So I'll let you kind of dive a little bit deeper into that later. But basically, that's when we kind of started working together. So why don't you share a little bit about your background, right? Um, where you came from and what you did before Cloudjoi, right? And then later on we'll dive a little bit deeper into how Cloudjoi kind of came together.

I graduated as a software engineer, but my first job was a website designer. And then I quit my first job and then I started doing freelancing for, uh, for doing websites, uh, and designing and development. And that's where the progress comes in. And then slowly it turned into a company, which was Apple Seeds. And slowly hired more people, more team members, and then it became like a company. And that's where we decided, okay, we cannot just become all freelancers. We have to find an office. But we didn't want to have an office space. So what we wanted is a community. That's where we found WeWork coworking space. And that's where we met also.

Yes.

It's a very long story how it became Cloudjoi. Maybe we can talk about that later. But after Apple Seeds, we started another company called Cloud Theater during the pandemic. And two years into the pandemic, during 2022, I decided to close down Apple Seeds and then fully focused on Cloud Theater. And now it has been rebranded into Cloudjoi.

Okay, cool. So that's a little bit of backstory of how we met, how, you know, it all started, right? And how it turns into, you know, Cloudjoi today. Let's kind of unpack that a little bit. So, um, you know, we have kind of talked a little bit about your background, right? How you kind of come into, you know, running Cloudjoi. But I think, um, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but, um, the whole story of how, um, you went from starting something that is not Cloudjoi, that turns into Cloudjoi is something quite interesting that I would like you to kind of, uh, you know, dive a little bit in deeper into that, right? So that people know exactly how Cloudjoi came about.

Yeah, I missed out that part. Okay, I was, um, doing my first corporate job, which was many, many years ago. I have already started having interest in performing arts, especially musical theater. And that time I didn't know what to do or where to go. I started attending shows and writing reviews. And slowly I get to know more people in the industry and they got to know me. And from that blog onwards, the first blog, it was called Stage KL.

Mhm.

Is no longer there.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was thinking like, oh, I should go and check it out. It was many, many years ago because it was too difficult to maintain. It was a one-man show. I have to I had to go to watch the shows. I have to take I had to take pictures. I have to write the reviews. I have to curate all the listings myself.

So you're kind of like a critic in a way.

In a way.

Yeah.

In a way.

So I thought it wasn't sustainable. And then I slowly doing less and less of reviews and writing. Then I created a second website called Starlight Gateway.

Okay.

With the vision of automating some of these things that I need to do.

Okay.

So that I don't have to curate. I have to go to every website. So I developed a crawler.

Okay.

To to to crawl all the other websites and then automatically list them onto Starlight Gateway. It took actually one or two years for it to finally work. But it didn't have any traction. It didn't picked up. So nobody really are using it.

Okay.

Uh then pandemic hit. That's where, um, wait, I didn't explain.

It's okay. We can go into that.

Backtrack to Stage KL, the first blog. After I started writing reviews, I got to know a lot of directors, producers, actors, performers, singers.

Okay.

And that's how I got into the industry. And that's where I, I met one of the, uh, my friends. He was just about to start a musical theater class.

Okay.

So I took part. I started taking classes, learning singing, acting, and dancing. And then slowly I got into productions and more and more productions. And since then I never look back and I have been performing on stage for for 12 years now, alongside running businesses.

How do you do that?

I have no idea.

You have no idea.

Passion, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. So, okay. So before kind of, I mean, these are all like, you know, how you became, you know, an actor yourself, right? Got into the production and stuff like that. But how did "... Cloudjoi came about, right? So I believe it was a story about you meeting someone very important in 500 Startups, and then that whole thing kind of turned into Cloudjoi and stuff like that. So could you kind of dive a little bit deeper into that?

Actually, I have two stories.

Oh, wow.

I think the one that you mentioned is the first story.

Okay.

There's a second story that you didn't know.

Oh, shoot! Today we're going to...

Okay. The first story is how Cloud Theater came about.

Okay.

The second story is how Cloudjoi came about.

Okay, let's go into Cloud Theater first.

Okay, sure.

Like you said, we moved into the co-working space right beside 500 Startups' office. During that time, it was called 500 Durian.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, Malaysia. It's run by Khailee.

Yes.

And a lot of people wanted to know him, including us.

Yourself.

Right.

Yes. So we moved into that office space next to 500, hoping that, "Okay, we'll bump into him and then get to know Khailee." Then fast forward, nothing happened. And one day, we received one email, an inquiry about building a wedding website, right? It's by this girl called Eliza.

Okay.

So we were like, "Wedding website? No, we don't want to do a wedding website."

That's probably what I would think about on my first impression on the email as well.

Yeah, but lesson learned, don't judge too quickly.

Yes, don't judge.

Yeah, he didn't reply instantly, so we just left it there. And then the next day, when I came into the office, then I saw somebody in my office talking to my staff, right? Then I was like, "Wait, who's that?" So I went inside and I was like, "Is that Khailee?"

Right.

He was in my office talking to my staff. And then I was like, "Okay, okay, hi, nice to meet you." Then he was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife sent an inquiry and then not getting any reply." Then we were like, "Damn, you..."

Yeah.

Then she showed Khailee the email, and then Khailee was like, "Wait, Apple Seeds, beside me?"

Yeah, "They... I know them. They're beside my office." So he came straight away to the office and then just came in, knocked our door, and then you're like, "Oh, oh, wedding website? Definitely we would love to."

So, so what was the excuse that you gave him, like, you know, for not replying to her?

Yeah, we said it went into spam.

Okay.

But many, many years later, we actually came clean, like, "Oh, because it was a wedding website, so we just thought, 'Okay, not priority.'"

Okay, okay.

But also, it's not just any other wedding website. It was a very, how to say, a very special wedding website where there will be no physical wedding.

Yeah.

So everything will be online, live-streamed from his house to attendees from all across the world.

So we thought, "Oh, you never mentioned that in the email. It was just a wedding website."

Yeah.

This is not any other wedding website. So it's a very interesting online streaming wedding website. So we immediately said yes to that project, and that project became Cloud Wedding. A lot of people felt like it was special. However, that project was shelved until 2020.

Pandemic hit.

Okay.

All the theaters were closed. The theaters were the last to open, I think, for almost two years.

Okay.

So by the fourth or fifth month, we already thought, "Okay, it's not gonna work. It's not going to work really." We needed to do something. So one of my friends, William Yap, who is now co-founder of Cloudjoi, he came to me and then he said, "Okay, all the theaters were closed. Can we do something?"

Yeah.

And then we just brainstormed and then it was like, "Oh, maybe we can use Starlight Gateway." But I was like, "No, Starlight Gateway, we have to do a lot of things and we have to modify a lot of things. It will take too much time." And then I was like almost ready to say no to the project. However, my other co-founder of Cloudjoi and Apple Seeds, Kevin, he suddenly had this idea, "Wait, we had one project back in 2018, which is Cloud Wedding. What if we take Cloud Wedding, we modify the RSVP system, and then we just plug the payment gateway into it? Then we can have online streaming, and we can have ticketing and collect payment."

Yeah.

Then we thought, "Okay, this might work." So we used like two weeks...

Okay.

...to modify the entire Cloud Wedding into Cloud Theater.

Okay.

And William, who is a playwright, theater director, theater producer, he produced a one-man monologue show.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Two weeks to rehearse and put the show together. And then after that, we used two weeks to sell tickets, and we sold about 300 plus tickets.

Yeah.

And everybody was like, "Wow, this is something. This is working."

Yeah. And that's how Cloud Theater started.

Nice. Okay. So that's essentially your validation, right?

Yeah, it's like our MVP.

Yes. Without knowing, we came up with an MVP. So, so what I'm just curious, right, as you kind of talk about that, because you are basically reusing Cloud Wedding, right? Was that something that you guys have kind of spoken to Khailee about, you know, in terms of like reusing the whole thing, or like what was the process like?

Yeah, we... Before we actually use it, we actually talked to Khailee and Eliza and said, "We're like, 'Hey, we had this idea. Yeah, we want to turn Cloud Wedding into Cloud Theater so that we can start streaming shows and charging tickets.'"

Then they were like, "Okay, interesting. Sure, sure, go ahead."

Yeah.

Then the next day, Khailee called us. Then he was like, "Do you guys have time tomorrow? Okay, come over to my place."

Okay, we brainstorm. I brought the whole team over to his place.

Wow, okay.

And then we just started to brainstorm how Cloud Theater can develop, and where's the future roadmap. And he just started writing all the big numbers on a very big paper that he always used.

Okay.

And then just laid out the whole future plan for us.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. And at that time, we were like, "Wow. Oh my god. Okay. Wow. This..." No. Oh, it was like, "Is this going to work?"

Because being Khailee, he has seen so much...

Visionaries, you know.

Yeah, yeah. He has funded so many startups around the world. And then when he sees this potential, he actually put out all the numbers for us. And we were so skeptical, but actually, last year, we looked back at our numbers. We hit beyond those numbers already.

Oh, nice. Congratulations.

Yeah. So, so without realizing, actually, he actually saw the future of where things can be.

I see. I see. I see. Well, I mean, that turns out well. So, I guess he kind of invested in you guys.

Uh, yeah, actually, he did more than that. He also became our close mentor.

Good mentor, actually, is very important.

Yeah, 100%, 100%. That's where you get the breakthroughs that you need.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

And we found the encouragement, support.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. So, you mentioned just now the second story.

Oh, yeah. The second story. The first story was how Cloud Theater came about.

Yeah.

And yeah, it was at that time, it was still, I would call it, a pet project.

Okay.

Alongside Apple Seeds. And everybody was just like, "Okay, if we have extra time, we will spend on it and then we'll just let it run." And then there will be online shows all the way until 2023, actually.

Okay.

Online shows. But we did not really go full force because it wasn't sustainable or profitable yet.

Okay.

Cloud Theater at that time, in 2022. Um, that was something that happened to me, I would say.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. Um, it was my, like, I would call it my midlife crisis.

Wow. Okay. Midlife crisis. Let's, let's dive a little bit deeper into that.

I remember very clearly, March 3, 2022.

Yeah.

I made three life-changing decisions in one day. The first one, I decided to close down Apple Seeds. The second one, I decided to close down the office.

Okay.

And the third one, I decided to move house from the place where I have been staying for the past 15 years. So all these decisions I made in one day.

What prompted that?

It was difficult to say, actually. It was half of the company in Apple Seeds, they wanted to resign.

And why is that? Why is that?

I think during pandemic it was a time where we are the one that can stay at home and work.

Yeah, because we are digital nomads.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, that's what we did for almost two years. We, we, although we had an office, we didn't go into office, right? So we just stay at home and then we are still working and then making an income and everything was like, we were just living in a bubble. A very comfortable bubble.

Yes.

Especially for people like us.

Yes.

It was really a comfortable bubble. But, however, deep down I knew we couldn't sustain like this forever. Something needs to change. But the comfort is just too much to be taken away that I didn't want to change, or I at least I didn't want it to end.

Yeah.

So I thought, okay, when the pandemic ends, I will change.

Yeah.

But one year, two years, it was still damn comfortable until the day where half of the Apple Seed staff's team members they said, "Okay, they feel like they have, they are stuck and they want to go out and explore."

Right?

That was the wakeup call. And I thought, "Okay, it's time to change. We can't just like continue like this anymore." So, uh, I took a few days to let that sink in. And, uh, on 3rd of March, yeah, I was like, "Okay, let's change." And we, we have to change 180. We have to uproot everything. So yeah, I made all that three big decisions, and the next day I get to work, and then I really started to make all the changes.

So what, how, how did, um, all of these changes kind of, um, helped you turn things around? And what sort of impact does that make?

A lot.

A lot.

Um, so, uh, one of the biggest reasons where I took it so personally and, and, and impacted me so much, it was because, um, my lead engineer, I think you know him.

Yeah.

Yeah. When you say that, I know who he was one of the team members that wanted to leave.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, it was a, a difficult news to hear.

Yeah, because he's a superstar, and yeah, he, he's a very close friend. He's a very, uh, smart guy. He, he can really, uh, code very well. I knew because he made that decision is, is also because, uh, the lacking from our side as, as bosses. So I accepted the fact that he wants to leave. But, uh, he didn't say when. However, I will start making changes.

So that's what, uh, we did. Me and Kevin, we actually started to brainstorm how we want to transition from Apple Seeds to Cloudjoi, how we want to move to a new environment, find new office, and then get new projects, and then slowly phase out Apple Seeds. And, uh, we came up with a plan and then, um, we asked him out for, for, for dinner. And then we were like, uh, okay, uh, we're not going to make you stay, but we're just going to share these plans with you.

After sharing everything, then he said one thing, "This is the thing that I've been waiting to hear."

So, um, he, he was quite surprised that we actually, uh, wanted to change so much.

Yeah.

Um, however, he already had two interviews lined up, right? So, he was like, "Okay, but I will still go to the interviews."

Yeah.

And he went. It was Grab and KPMG. Some, some companies that you, you don't think you will be able to beat, right?

Yeah.

And of course, we never, of course, like, we never thought we can beat Grab or KPMG. Um, but he came back and then he said, "I have decided to stay." Then we were like, okay, so happy. And he's still here until now.

Nice.

So I think, um, let me just unpack that a little bit. I think a lot of times, uh, I mean, this is not, not exactly on the tech side of things, but more like, you know, lessons that we can actually kind of take away from here is basically, sometimes people leaving is not just about money, right? Sometimes our team members leave us because they no longer feel challenged. They are stuck. They are basically, you know, in a plateau where they are no longer growing.

Yes.

That's a very important word. Growing.

Yes.

So when, when that happens, people leave, right? And, um, when you presented that new challenge, then it basically made him feel refreshed that, ooh, there's a new challenge coming. Right?

Yes.

I would much more prefer something like this compared to going into a big company. Maybe there's also challenge there, but there might also be a lot of political issues, you know, within the company and stuff like that that he might not want at all.

Yes.

That's exactly the reason, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. You mentioned this is where you kind of make the change, right? And then that how it transitioned into Cloudjoi, right?

Oh, yeah. I haven't finished. I haven't finished.

I'm here. I'm here to, to keep you on track.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, that decision, uh, to transition from Apple Seeds to Cloud Theater, uh, already decided. So it took us one year to slowly transition everything over. And, uh, within the first year itself, uh, of course, it wasn't profitable, but at that point, we already had three sort of like platforms or brands. We had Cloud Theater for online streaming. We had Cloud Tix for digital ticketing. We also had, uh, Cloud Theater Revive for on-demand streaming, something like Netflix.

Okay.

So at that point, we already had like, uh, three platforms and doing different things.

Yeah.

So, uh, once we started transitioning over to Cloud Theater, and then I thought, okay, we cannot have three different brands going forward.

Yeah.

So I thought, okay, we needed a single brand that consolidates everything.

Yeah.

That's where I go and search what's are still available. Well, that's what we always do. Right?

Yes.

The first thing you search is it available.com. And then I, I went through a lot of names and then one day suddenly just popped, "Cloudjoi."

Oh, okay.

J O Y. Uh, because it's a wordplay on "joining" and "joyful." So, uh, uh, that's why we, I came up with the name Cloudjoi.

Okay.

And then, okay, I thought, okay, this is quite catchy. So I go and search for cloudjoy.com. It's available. It's available. And it's not someone is like chopping it or whatever. It's really available. I could buy it immediately. So that's what I did. I bought it immediately. And, uh, immediately I changed the company name to Cloudjoi.

Nice.

Yeah. And, uh, within that year, uh, we created a big event, uh, at GMBB, invited the whole industry players, came over. And then we made that announcement, "From now onwards, Cloud Theater will be known as Cloudjoi."

Nice. How, how, how many years ago was that?

Yeah. So until now, about three, three, four years.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. Nice. Well, that's the, the whole, uh, story about Cloudjoi. A lot of things there, right? A lot of, uh, I think, you know, these are like cool stories. I'm not sure if you have, have you shared any of these on any other platforms before?

Um, I think parts and puzzle everywhere.

Okay.

Okay. I mean, uh, that's, it's good that, uh, we're getting all of that here.

Yeah.

All in one place, right? The whole journey. In the future, you can actually refer to this.

So, one of the things that we, we do here, um, on this podcast itself, is, um, our, our listeners, our, our viewers are a lot of, uh, non-technical founders, right? Uh, and you yourself technical, right? You're technical. So, you're not exactly non-technical. Um, uh, so, so what, what exactly do you think, um, when a non-technical founder, right? "I think you'll probably be very familiar with them as well because during your Apple Seeds time, you work with a lot of non-technical founders, right? Businesses, business owners, entrepreneurs, founders who are non-technical came to you guys to kind of build a product, right? So from your experience so far, right, how many years was that since Apple Seeds started until now?

Wow, more than 10 years, I think, since 2011, 2011 until now, definitely more than 10 years, right?

So from your more than 10 years of experience, right, so what sort of mindset shift non-technical entrepreneurs should have when they think about today's age of building tech, right, building tech, and nowadays with AI and stuff like that coming out so fast, right, so many different things coming out? So what sort of mindset shift do you think they should have before diving deep into, you know, building something?"

"The first thing that came to my mind is that don't even think about tech because what you really should focus on is creating values for the end users, the customers. So, tech is just a tool or a medium for you to deliver that value. And if you think about tech first, you might lose your focus on creating that value. So, once you identify the values, um, try to deliver it as effective as possible with the least amount of resources. In resources, that means tech, uh, uh, uh, team members, uh, time, and also money. That's why people say MVP. Yeah. Because you still need to deliver the same value whether you use a simple tech or you use very complicated tech. Second thing is that get someone that really, really know tech better than you. If you are non-tech founders, you should really find someone that really knows tech and trust that person that can deliver the tech to create this value for your users."

"So basically what you're saying is that the first one is to focus on, uh, value creation.

Yeah.

Right. Focus on, I think this is also one of the one of the things that, uh, Johnson, our previous, uh, guest, talked about as well, which is to focus on the problem. What exactly are you trying to solve? What value are you trying to create? Uh, and then tech is the vehicle, is the tool.

Yes.

Right. That's that's that's exactly what what you're trying to say here. And then the second one is basically tech partners.

Right.

Of course, I think that's also exactly what I kind of talk about all the time as well. There are so many different agencies, developers, freelancers out there, right? So, what do you think they should think about or check or review before making a decision to work with a certain partner, right? What do you think is the most important thing? Because I think that's like a huge question for them."

"Yeah, actually, that's a very good question. And and coming from me, I have been on both sides of the table.

Yeah.

I've been a a a tech provider.

Yeah.

And now I'm on the other side as a as a founder and work with my team which is the tech provider. Um, back in Apple Seeds when, uh, we were doing agency work, um, I realized one thing that's still very important up until today is that, uh, trust. You have to build trust between you and the, uh, tech partner or provider.

Yeah.

And the tech provider or your partner tech partner needs to be able to provide you with the trust. Gaining clients' trust is the first step. After that, things will work easier and the work that we can produce will be better.

Yeah.

Because the trust is there. However, a lot of people do not know how to build this trust.

Yeah.

A lot of people straight away come in, 'This is my quotation. This is how much I charge.'

Yeah.

'Because this is what you ask for. So, I this is what I give. You ask A, I give you A, and this is how much.'

Okay.

However, we realized that's not really the best way to approach this. When we always look at things in a deeper level, so if a client asks for A,

Yeah.

The first thing we will ask is that why they ask for A? Sometimes is not because of what we see.

Yeah.

On the surface.

Yeah.

For example, uh, let's say if someone asks for, if a client asks you to build an app,

Okay, you can say, 'Okay, build an app.'

Yeah, 'I have a quotation, uh, 1 million. If you buy it, okay, I'll build the 1 million app for you.'

Yeah.

However, if you look closely, they might not need an app at all. They might just need a mobile website.

Yeah.

So we will look into things like this and then we will advise them. We will say, 'Okay, see, you don't need an app.'

Yeah, 'You just need a mobile website.' Immediately the client will feel like, 'Okay, uh, they are thinking not just for themselves, they are thinking for me. They are trying to solve my real problems that even that I didn't know is a problem.'

Yeah, that's where the trust will start begin to build. And from there onwards, if you can continue to, uh, provide values or solve problems beyond what the client will see,

Yeah.

the trust will compound and in the future, whatever decision you you you make on behalf of the client, they will be okay.

Yeah.

The the relationship will, uh, uh, flourish."

"100%. I think that's, uh, that's basically music to my ears because, um, that's exactly what we do as well. And and I think, um, you know, let's let's kind of turn that around a little bit because basically what you're saying is from an agency perspective that is exactly what we do as well. Uh, but a lot of non-tech founders or non-tech entrepreneurs, they just don't know how that kind of translate to what they should be doing, right? Basically, the easiest way to kind of talk about this is that when you are looking for agencies or developers or freelancers, right, look for those who challenge you on things, right, not just accept anything that you give them and just give you a quotation, right? That is basically transactional.

Yes.

Right. But when it comes comes to actual real good partners that will think for you and, uh, will actually do great work for you are those that actually think for you, challenge you on the things on your assumptions, and they diagnose, right? They diagnose rather than just giving the solution right away without knowing the problem itself, just like we go to doctors, right? When we go to doctors, they don't just give us, 'Oh, eat this pill.' That's about it, right? We listen to we us diagnosing ourel, you know, and times they do.

Well, okay, that's that's that's bad practice. You you should, uh, probably, uh, you know, report them. Uh, but yeah, so you will have to, they will have to kind of diagnose them, right? Diagnose the actual issues. They ask questions to understand what is the problem and then you proceed from there to kind of give them the solution, you know, how you can actually fix those issues, right? But for some reason when it comes to, you know, other services, people just don't do that, right? So the easiest way is to look for providers, uh, developers who will actually challenge you on the things that you want and really, really, um, share with you things that you might not expect to hear from a developer itself.

Yeah.

Right. I think that's the most important thing."

"Yeah, I think I think you mentioned a very important thing is they they have to know how to ask questions and they need to know what questions to ask. If, uh, your partner, tech partner, that have no questions, that's a big red flag. If whoever that you want to work together with, uh, they have to know how to ask a lot of questions. So, so because if they don't ask questions, um, it's very hard to get both sides to know what's the real issues, what each, uh, other side really, really want to, uh, work on. So asking question is very important."

"Yeah, I think, um, I perfectly perfectly agree on that as well. Um, that's usually most of the thing that most of the time that's what we do. And also another thing is that when a developer tells you that, um, you know, you don't need an app, you just need a mobile website, listen to that, right? Because most of the time, uh, they are basically, you know, you you can think about it this way that they are basically helping you to save money. That's one thing, right? And they are making less money because of that.

Exactly.

Right. And it doesn't make sense on their side, but it will make sense to you, right? So that's something that you should be taking note on.

Yes.And over the years, we have turned away so many clients that we just tell them that you don't need an app right now. You just need a website. Just go and build a website or like, you know, e-commerce, right? Just go and get a Shopify store and up and running and you are good to go, right? You don't need to build something custom, right? So those are the people that you want to actually listen to, right? Especially when you're non-technical because these are the experts that you know actually know what's going on.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. That's uh I think that's that's really good that uh you know, we we kind of touch about that. So I want to kind of um talk a little bit about how you have kind of married tech with um a traditional industry. I would say I'm not sure if you agree with that like you know arts performing uh you know as performance and stuff like that. Um they might not be very techy, right? Overall as an industry, right? A lot of things are still being done manually and stuff like that. Yes, you know, maybe there's ticketing and stuff like that, but that's pretty much about it from what I know, right? I might be, you know, might not be an expert on that. So, what was the the hardest thing that you have come across, right? Um when it comes to introducing tech to an industry that is not techy, right? Um that's traditional. And what sort of challenge have you had to kind of overcome in order to kind of educate um the industry about you know this how this tech can actually help them?

Yeah.

Uh when it comes to performing arts, it's not really traditional, it's ancient.

Oh, okay.

Even worse.

Okay.

It performing uh arts has been around since the ancient Greek.

Yeah.

It has been there and up until now through uh decades or centuries and it's still here. So, so it's an art form that will never go away because it's just uh what humanity humanity is when it comes to performing arts. There are too many baggages and when we introduce Cloud Theater online streaming of a live performance who are the backslashes that we got because um to a lot of theater practitioners performing arts is all about being in the same space and uh they always pride themselves that we are different from movies. We are different from uh TV series, uh recorded videos because the performance uh and the audience are in the same space where it happens and that is something very special.

Yeah, the connection

Uh of course we never deny that and we truly appreciate that and we believe that 100% 200% with all our hearts as well because coming from a performing background I totally agree. However, uh when we introduced Cloud Theater, a lot of people thought that we are trying to take that away from them. So, they were these uh veterans in the industries. They they they started to, you know, you uh uh make some noise uh post on Facebook and then saying like, okay, this is not how you do theater. This is not live theater at all. However, they never go and actually go and try what Cloud Theater was about. We just keep going because uh what we found out was that what we created was not not just uh any live streaming because coming from theater background we knew the importance of having the performance and the audience within the same space. So what we created was a digital theater where the performers and the audience actually in the same space and if you imagine uh it's like uh you know Clubhouse Clubhouse back in pandemic where you have uh the audience where we can see all the audience and the speakers we created something almost like that but on the top part is the live streaming video and the audience audience is actually at the bottom and then sited nicely as if they were in the theater itself and they could live chat. They could give uh emotions emoji. We created the emoji things even before Google Meet had it.

Okay.

Yeah. So with all these things a lot of our audiences actually they felt they were in the same space with the performance.

Yeah.

And even the performers who were performing in front of a camera right before they start streaming, they felt the same nervousness before they go on stage.

Okay.

So it was actually live because at that same time everybody were there to do the same thing to achieve the same thing which is sharing of stories and emotions. Uh but just online.

Okay.

So we created that but uh a lot of like uh those older uh more experienced uh they they never even go and tried and then they started saying all these things. But we just kept going and eventually um they actually go and tried it and then since then they stopped talking.

So what you're saying here is that just keep going.

Yeah.

If you believe something uh it's the right way going forward, just keep going.

So you did not actually kind of even take time to like convince them about certain things.

No.

You just show them the results. We didn't even have to uh try to prove to them eventually uh whatever we did is proof enough to uh let them accept the fact that yes, the world is changing.

Okay, that's that's pretty much very powerful there because um I think there's still a lot of industries out there that are very traditional.

Yes.

And very resistance resistant to kind of uh change, right? Or tech and with today's you know in the age of AI and stuff like that that is going to basically speed up even faster.

Yeah.

Right. And if you don't change, you are just going to get left out and you know and you know, you'll die off, right? You'll die off. So, so that's a that's why I think change is very very important uh especially after my midlife crisis. So actually every year uh on third of March, I I will celebrate change day with the entire company.

Oh, wow.

I think the first year I was like, everyone go and find something to change in your life. You it could be a big thing you want to change, it could be a small thing. Uh so some people over the weekend, uh they just went for you know spin class because they have never been on spin been to spin class before. Some change uh the way they go to work. Some they just try a new dish that they will never try. So every year will do different thing. This year uh I ask everybody to write a reflection uh of their time with uh Cloudjoi or Apple Seeds.

Yeah.

All the way until that day. So, so everybody share their journey with pictures, with articles, with stories. So, every year third of March, I celebrate change day with everybody just to remind them changing is extremely important.

Nice.

If you don't change, you are being stagnant.

Yes.

If you are stagnant, the society will build on top and then you are forced to be pushed down and left behind. Even if you don't move.

Yeah.

You are moving backwards.

Yeah.

That's so true because um I think even with what's going on these days with AI and stuff like that, a lot of people are still resistant to kind of change, right?

Yes.

And what the the the the metaphor that you just gave is very very true in that sort of sense as well because if you don't change, you're just going to, you know, get left behind and the whole world will build on top of you.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

They're not going to wait. Nobody's going to wait. Right? AI doesn't know that you don't want to change, right? They're just going to kind of keep going and stuff like that. And the people who adapt those things, those are the ones that will change.

Yes.

Right. Those are the ones that will keep moving forward. Um and leave those who don't behind.

Definitely.

That's powerful. That's powerful. Okay, cool. I think um that's a lot of things that we've covered.

Okay, so let's uh let's go through some uh, you know, some rapid fire just for fun, right? Some questions. Um, so, uh, which one is more nerve-wracking, shipping a new feature, right, or going live on stage?

Wow. If I have to pick, it would be giving keynote live on stage.

Okay. Giving live keynotes. Okay. So, what's uh one thing you've learned as a performer, right, for the past 12 years that made you a better entrepreneur?

Having confidence to be in front of people and uh uh being a performer train you to have empathy, right? And having empathy is very important in everything, not just entrepreneurship.

Yeah.

Even leading your team team members, even talking to clients if you have empathy, it will uh bring you far.

Empathy.

Yes. That's very important. Next next question. Um, what's a mistake tech teams make when building for creators?

Okay. A lot. Um, a lot of things that uh tech team built thinking people will use it. Yeah. But actually people don't use it and we have a lot of fe that that kind of features in our system right now.

Okay. Um so it's not about um building features after features. Uh it's actually about building the one thing that is most useful and continue pioneering it uh pushing it, promoting it and get people to build habits around it.

So you can have 10 features, but if you're not pushing it, promoting it, people will not remember, habits will not be built. Yeah.

So rather than build one and do it right so that people will adopt then you move on to the next one, rather than having so many features and then nobody using it.

Okay. So what's what's that one one feature that that is like the biggest that you guys built, but then nobody's using it?

Um I I don't know if I should say this, but AI. Because last year everybody was like talking about AI.

Okay.

So if you don't have anything AI, you'll be seen left behind. So last year we we jump on the bandwagon and then we build something AI and then no one's doing it.

So what's what's that AI thing that you've introduced into Cloudjoi?

Okay. Because uh uh the AI thing that we built was that one, when you create uh an event, uh you have to fill in a lot of forms. You have to fill in the content. You have to fill in ticket price. You have to fill in the time, the date, um and all these things, promo codes. You have to set up a lot of things.

Okay. So, we created an AI. Basically, you just throw everything inside without format anything. You just type everything. uh description, uh your poster.

Okay.

And the AI will extract all the things from the poster from all your description.

Okay.

And fill in the form for you perfectly.

That's that's pretty useful. But why is it not why is nobody using it?

I guess people don't know how to use it because there's no format, and I think a lot of people maybe still uh prefer, oh, this is the field. I put in the detail in this field. Yeah, I go through it one by fun. Maybe I spend hours double checking. Yeah. Okay. Publish.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

So, yeah. Built for the value, and if you want uh you know, to actually people to actually use it, you have to teach them how to use it. Yeah. Education.

Okay. Cool. One last question. Um one thing nontech founder think is important, right? Um throughout the years that you've worked with nontech founders, uh but isn't building the perfect product?

I think we'll just stop there because that's the best thing I've heard. There's nothing perfect. Yeah, because everyone wants to build it, you know, the ultimate product all once, you know, the perfect product, right? But even for you who've been building a platform, you know that the product is not perfect until right now.

Yes.

It's never perfect. The earlier you realize that, the better. Yeah. Because you can you have to just keep shipping. Yeah. And not wait until the perfect product only ship. Yeah. That's actually even some of our clients unfortunately are still having that mindset even if we have uh shared with them a lot of times. Um so it's something that's very, very important.

Okay, cool. Last question here would be where can people follow your work, uh support Cloudjoi, or learn more about what you're building?

Hm. Um, we have a blog on our website where we'll post a lot of things about Cloudjoi and our progress, our international expansion, and also on our social media, Instagram, Cloudjoi, uh where we'll post all the uh industry, the performing arts scene, where the new shows, what what show is coming, uh what international show is coming in, uh in comedy, music, musical theater, and dance. So, uh you can follow our Cloudjoi Instagram for all the uh performing arts news and uh check out our uh blog on our website for all the uh Cloudjoi uh updates and latest workings, and also follow my personal Instagram, uh Dennis 13E, and uh I'll post about my work, about my personal life.

Okay, we will put that in the show notes so that everyone can kind of just click on the link easier, right? Um so that you know, you guys can catch it. But yeah, thanks for hopping on, uh you know, the podcast. Uh you're the second guest. Uh thanks for supporting our podcast even though it's new. And uh it was a pleasure talking to you after so after after so long.

Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

All right, we'll see you in the next episode.